Curse

Riotgear · Oct 05, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

"In the current blockway meta" - what about after that? Are we just going to see everyone run the KGYU-esque condition build again?

I wouldn't exactly mind that, personally, though I'm having a hard time seeing how Rangers are overpowered without blockway gimping their interrupt capability when they've had one of their strongest bars ever since Nightfall and weren't particularly over-the-top any time before blockway showed up. Well, aside from BHA wiping teams that refused to slot Draw to keep Dazed off of their RC. Distracting Shot and Savage Shot have been in their current form for as long as I can remember, when exactly have they been a problem?

Seamus Finn · Oct 05, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

I am sort of in agreement with Vanq. Rangers really are SO strong in how much they bring to a build. There isn't a template that really comes close to having the stand prescence and split presence/durability that a ranger has. Before blockway became big rangers were pretty much mandatory. I think blockway is really effective in light of how strong Paragons and Rangers are. They are rarer now because the ranger has to be good/patient enough to weave through all the blocks before he can start his job, and is in no way related to the strength of his bar. When I monk, I find myself a lot more vulnerable to them than warriors.

Jaen · Oct 05, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Saying Ranger's don't need to get toned down, especially considering the nerfs that everyone is calling for to defensive skills, just shows a lack of thinking about the reprecussions of any significant nerf or buff to any skill.

"In the current blockway meta" - what about after that? Are we just going to see everyone run the KGYU-esque condition build again?

I'm pretty sure they have longer recharges and a cost that actually means something.

K, so after blockway gets nerfed, which it should, interrupts won't miss with anywhere near the frequency they currently do. Blind/Blurred/Obstructions is a ridiculously stupid argument. Blind because of Mending Touch being on every single Rangers bar, as well as external condition removal. Blurred because the only time it's going to affect any Ranger is in a hex build, when you want to be talking more about hex stacks, and Obstructions just because.

What reprecussions? As someone mentioned above, distracting shot/savage shot has been unchanged for a long time, mending touch and natural stride have been on the bar since NF and have not caused problems before blockway.

If everyone runs KGYU condition meta, that will just be another shift of the metagame, one for which an appropriate counter already exists in the form of RC and othr powerful condition removal options introduced by NF.

Even with mending touch on their bar, a blinded ranger will have to clean the blind before shooting an interrupt at which point they'll likely have missed their chance to interrupt the spell or skill. Obstructions are nothing to shrug off as long as the casting player knows how to use them.

Oh, btw I think you missed the issue of interrupt baiting I also mentioned.

Shmanka · Oct 05, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I personally think nothing has to be changed to Rangers, they don't give a whole team an unseeable/unstripable aegis.

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Nerf Paragon
Energy cost: None for Devs Casting time: Izzy (easy) Recharge: Instant Anet
Update. For 1...12...16 months, shouts are marked by a green arrow on health bars, and any effect affecting enchantments also affect shouts. Leadership does not give energy but extend shout/chants/echo duration for 5...17...21%. Direct shout counter skills appears on at least one attribute of each class.

kvndoom · Oct 05, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Leadership does not give energy but extend shout/chants/echo duration for 5...17...21%.

I like that idea. A rework of some 15e and 25e Paragon skills would be in order since the e-management will be gone, but I think that's a good change for Leadership.

For each rank in Leadership, shouts and chants and echoes last 2% longer...?

erk · Oct 05, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Hexer's Vigor should be reduced to a 1 sec cast like Healing Breeze etc. seeing it's a Necro only skill, stripable, and 78% of Necro skills cancel it!

Lorekeeper · Oct 05, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Nerf Paragon
Energy cost: None for Devs Casting time: Izzy (easy) Recharge: Instant Anet
Update. For 1...12...16 months, shouts are marked by a green arrow on health bars, and any effect affecting enchantments also affect shouts. Leadership does not give energy but extend shout/chants/echo duration for 5...17...21%. Direct shout counter skills appears on at least one attribute of each class.

I think treating shouts/chants like enchantments is a crude and unnecessary solution. As far as i see it, its not the unremovable nature that is the source of their imbalance, its the fact that a paragon can spam them on recharge WHILE spamming an assortment of medium to high energy cost spells/skills like mirror of disenchantment WHILE having a DPS output close to that of a frontline warrior WHILE being incredibly difficult to kill whether it be by pressure or spike.

Now if the four combined are the problem, the question is, which of the four needs to be balanced and how many of the four need to be balanced?

is it...

1) shouts being impossible to counter
2) leadership fueling energy too well
3) aggressive refrain+spear too much DPS
4) armour too high

of course, doing something to all four might effectively remove paragons from the game (which some actually call for). But i do not think that would ever be done, nor should it be.

of course, thinking of a simple solution that might solve a few of the above issues would be ideal

1)+2)+3) are linked common factor being energy from leadership

3) is somewhat an independant variable governed by the nature of spears and their attack skills (but linked to aggressive refrain).

4) is also somewhat of an independant variable, armour is only boosted by spamming of watch yourself which isnt always part of the paragon build, but starts off pretty high at base 80.

its pretty clear that the constant energy fuelled by leadership is at the heart of the majority of the issues.

id rather not see it nerfed to oblivion though.

Currently paragons gain 1 energy for every ally that are affected by their shouts. At 12 leadership the max would therefore be 6 energy for 6 allies.

How about halving the energy gain to 3? Or a 33% reduction to 4? You could come up with a table based progression,

1-6 leadership = gain 1 energy/ ally max 3energy
7-11 leadership = max 4 energy
12-15 leadership = max 5 energy
16 leadership = max 6 energy

If its the DPS and the armour thats the main issue, how about reducing the firing rate of the spear to 1.75 and/or lowering its maximum dmg. Perhaps lowering the bonus dmg done by attack skills.

In terms of armour, how about the -20 armour condition on aggressive refrain like so many people have suggested? How about lowering the base armour level of paragon armour to 70 or 75 instead of 80?

Rice · Oct 05, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The avatar buff will make derv really overpowered. Specially Avatar of Dwayna.

Der has 4 pip energy regen,same as all caster. And there are tonnes of 5 enrgy cost spammable skill for Dwayna's to use to keep himself clean from hex and conditions. (i.e pious haste). also shouts also counts as skills, so a Dwaynas with shouts such as watch yourself will definetely overpower other classes.

Also with the buff, it pretty much impossible to stop a Dwayna from running relics in ha.

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Unstrippable-unseeable things that are superior to strippable enchantments like Aegis is IMHO a point that has to be adressed in addition of powerful e-management of paragons.
The fact that you can't even see if a target might block your attacks or not is a nightmare for the nub PvPer I am. Before Nightfall when I saw my squishie opponent with a yellow arrow I could easily switch target or call for a strip. Now that's impossible.

Lorekeeper · Oct 05, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The fact that you can't even see if a target might block your attacks or not is a nightmare for the nub PvPer I am. Before Nightfall when I saw my squishie opponent with a yellow arrow I could easily switch target or call for a strip. Now that's impossible.

realistically the 50% block from DA is only up 9-10 seconds out of 25. Thats less than 50% of the time. Not to mention that it generally only tends to stay on backlines and caster midlines even while it is up because they dont tend to attack. Frontlines, rangers, paragons do not benefit from DA much.

So what im trying to say is. When you know DA is up, which at least someone on your team should keep an eye on, you know that it would be more efficient to switch between backline/midline/frontline characters. When DA is not up, you can focus more on the midline/backline.

If you have trouble keeping track on DA and when it is used, just remember that the backline/midline casters will only be protected by DA less than 50% of the time, and 100% of the time the frontline/midline physicals will not.

So unless the enemy monks are feeling pressured because of low energy or because they are shutdown, it pays to spend a bit of time pressuring midliners and frontliners rather than continually bashing away on backlines. You wont achieve the sort of pressure on a monks energy levels if you keep on attacking the targets who will be protected under DA.

im sure some other much more experienced frontliners can come up with more advice, but theres mine.

Seamus Finn · Oct 05, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I personally think nothing has to be changed to Rangers, they don't give a whole team an unseeable/unstripable aegis.

I think the fact that they are not incredibly easy to play has kept people from thinking that they are overpowered. Before blockway, the monk runners(Sor Eles, Rits, and well Monks) had to be developed because of the new Mend Touch Ranger could park in your base and quickly get past any active defensive skills you might slot(Blind). He was nearly impossible to kill if he had awareness of his radar, and brought great utility and pressure to the stand. At that time, it was mostly burning arrow, but with the new, VERY cheap crip shot(or I guess old crip shot), the bar is only held in check by how hard every team metas against it. Searing Flames eles were quickly noted as being overpowered because of the ridiculous stacking of the skill combined with how easy it was to be dangerous with one. The ranger bar has a much higher learning curve, but there is clearly not another class capable of bringing so much versatility in one bar. I had always hoped there would be more bars LIKE the ranger bars, but I am always on the fence about the ranger being a little too potent(particularly in regards to other skirmish templates functioning at the stand).

twicky_kid · Oct 06, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Why are we talking about nerfs in a buff thread?

Bankai · Oct 06, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

The one thing that doesn't make a ranger overpowered is that it doesn't call for gimmicks. The power of a ranger doesn't suddenly increase exponentially if you add another ranger, and you won't even notice a third ranger if you add one in. Unlike Paragons, who benefit from multiple on one team, or Searing flame eles, there is no reason to take more than one ranger (some exceptions, ofcourse. Mainly talking about the current metagame.). Therefore it'll never be a big problem.

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 06, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Why are we talking about nerfs in a buff thread?

The threads shouldn't be separate.

twicky_kid · Oct 06, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

The threads shouldn't be separate.

If the devs do read these and draw inspiration its easier for them. Instead of sifting through 300+ post filtering out buffs and nerfs its already done for them.

Anyways back to buffs and your lists.

Uetzcayotl · Oct 06, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Not sure if it would be a buff or nerf, but maybe changing some ritualist binding rituals (shelter and friends) to something like this:

Shelter
10E / 3C / 30R
Create a Level 1...7...8 Spirit. Non-Spirit allies in the area cannot lose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack. When this Spirit prevents damage, it loses 60...40...35 Health. This spirit lasts 5...13...15 seconds and causes exhaustion.

Displacement
10E / 3C / 30R
Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Non-spirit allies in the area have a 75% chance to block attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, it loses 60...40...35 health. This spirit lasts 5...13...15 seconds and causes exhaustion.

Union
10E / 3C / 30R
Create a level 1...9...10 Spirit. Whenever a non-Spirit ally in the area takes damage, that damage is reduced by 25 and the Spirit takes 25 damage. This spirit lasts 5...17...20 seconds and causes exhaustion.

Its range wouldn't cover half the map and those who want its effect would have to be pretty close to it, making them a bit more vulnerable to AoE. And the spirit itself is pretty weak. I thought the adding exhaustion to expensive binding rituals was a good idea, but because ritualists don't have any way to deal with it, maybe change Soul Twisting to something like?

Soul Twisting [E]
5E / 30R
Destroy target allied spirit. The next Binding Ritual you perform casts 66% faster and does not cause exhaustion.

I think Ritual Lord can stay as is, exhaustion is the limiting factor and spamming these spirits on reduced recharge is not the best idea. Also, you couldn't bring more than one without Soul Twisting, but the recharge is 30 seconds so, at most, you would only remove exhaustion from casting one spirit. Adjust Signet of Binding to compensate.

adrifts · Oct 07, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

replacing the npc shrines in hero battles may help make it more of a kill fest than a cap fest.

Bankai · Oct 07, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I like the idea of reducing the AoE of spirits.

Vanquisher · Oct 08, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaen

What reprecussions? As someone mentioned above, distracting shot/savage shot has been unchanged for a long time, mending touch and natural stride have been on the bar since NF and have not caused problems before blockway.

If everyone runs KGYU condition meta, that will just be another shift of the metagame, one for which an appropriate counter already exists in the form of RC and othr powerful condition removal options introduced by NF.

Even with mending touch on their bar, a blinded ranger will have to clean the blind before shooting an interrupt at which point they'll likely have missed their chance to interrupt the spell or skill. Obstructions are nothing to shrug off as long as the casting player knows how to use them.

Oh, btw I think you missed the issue of interrupt baiting I also mentioned.

Just because they've been changed for a long time doesn't mean they don't require change. To use that as a basis for an argument is just wrong. They are extremely versatile skills, with great additional effects attributed to them.

Likewise Mending Touch and Natural Stride. The mere addition of them at Nightfall was just a little odd. Seriously, if you're basing an argument of "they haven't been changed for a long time" or "they've been on that bar forever" why are there calls for things like Defensive Anthem or Ward Against Melee to get nerfed also? They've been in their current state for a long time too, you know. The reason people don't go around saying Rangers should be nerfed all the time is two fold - they're a fun class, and they don't provide ridiculously overpowered aspects. If Rangers were as easy to play as a couple of other classes, such as a dedicated split Assassin, then people would be calling for nerfs because they would see the incredible effect they have when played well. However, when few people can play them well enough to warrant such talk, this is a nonissue. The problem is balance shouldn't depend on skill level. Things shouldn't be ok until you get good and then just amazing.

Blind doesn't matter anywhere near as it did on Rangers. You're not going to try and blind an interrupt, outside of a very few circumstances, and even then it is often more profitable to blind Warriors now. When a Monk is using LoD, for instance, and knows a Ranger is hassling him, you may want to throw a blind that way, but then you're giving the recharge up and realistically are only going to get your team 1 cast out of it.

Interrupt baiting is the second worst argument you've made. That actually could be seen as an increase in power. A Ranger won't always be attacking you, you know, and then when you go to cast you'll see D-Shot hit you. They do tab round, and the better ones won't make their interrupts so incredibly obvious that you can just bait them. If you propose casters bait every single one of their skills before casting until they see an interrupt go off and find its safe to cast you're delaying the majority of a team, which is just ridiculous.

Quote:

If the devs do read these and draw inspiration its easier for them. Instead of sifting through 300+ post filtering out buffs and nerfs its already done for them.

No, they shouldn't be seperate, but people shouldn't be incredibly stupid and post meaningless dribble in them either.